stay right with us. we'll have analysis throughout and of course at the end as well. ♪ >> cenk: we're right back here on current. we are on pins and needles. this is a very important debate. the democrats have to stop the bleeding as it were after the last debate. because the polling indicates that president obama lost the debate and has lost momentum. we're here with governor eliot

spitzer, governor grandholm, john fugelsang, and myself. >> jennifer: you saw those pictures out about paul ryan -- >> john: yes. >> eliot: wait -- >> jennifer: these are pictures from a while back -- >> john: paul ryan is the oldest guy to still wear a backwards baseball cap. >> jennifer: my question is does biden make a joke about that tonight? >> john: no. >> eliot: if one out of the four of us didn't see the pictures probably not. >> cenk: all right. buckle up. stay right here. good evening, and welcome to the first and only vice presidential debate of 2012 sponsored by the commission on presidential debates.

i'm martha raddatz, abc news and i am honored to moderate this debate between two men who have dedicated much of their lives to public service. tonight's debate is divided between domestic and foreign policy issues, and i'm going to move back and forth between the two since that's what a vice president or president will have to do. we'll have nining different segments. at the beginning of each segment i will ask both candidates a question, and they will have two minutes to answer, and then encourage discussion between the candidates with follow up comments. vice president biden will be first to answer the opening question. we have a wonderful audience here at center college here tonight. and right now we welcome vice president joe biden, and congressman paul ryan. [ cheers and applause ]

>> very nice to see you. >> biden: how are you doing? [ applause ] >> okay. you got your little wave to the families in. that's great. good evening, gentlemen. it really is an honor to be here with both of you. i would like to begin with libya. one month ago tonight on the anniversary of 9/11 ambassador chris stevens and three other brave americans were killed in benghazi. the state department has now made clear there were no protesters there. it was a preplanned assault. wasn't there a massive intelligence failure? >> biden: it was. it was a tragedy martha. chris stevens was one of our

best. we lost three other brave americans. i can make two commitments to you and all of the american people tonight. one, we will find and bring to justice the men who did this. and secondly we will get to the bottom of it and wherever the facts lead us, we will make clear to the american public. when you are looking pat -- at a president, martha you should look at his most important contribution. and take a look at how he has handled the issues of the day. on iraq the president has said he would end the war. governor romney said that was a tragic mistake. we should have left 30,000 troops there. with regard to afghanistan, he said he will end the war in 2014. governor romney said we should not set a date number one, and number two with regard to 2014

it depends. when it came to osama bin laden, the president, the first day in office, i was sitting with him, he called in the cia, and signed an order saying my highest priority is to get bin laden. prior to the election and him being sworn in governor romney was asked the ge about how he would proceed, and he said i wouldn't move heaven and earth to get bin laden. he didn't understand it was about restoring america's heart and letting terrorists around the world know if you do harm to america we will track you to the gates of hell if need be. and the president has lead with a steady hand and clear vision. governor romney the opposite. the last thing we need now is another war. >> congressman ryan. >> ryan: we mourn the loss of these four americans who were murdered. when you take a look at what has happened just in the last few

weeks. they sent the un ambassador out to say this was just of a protest and youtube video. it took the president two weeks to acknowledge that this was a terrorist attack. he went to the un and he said six times he talked about the youtube video. look, if we are hit by terrorists, we are going to call it for what it is, a terrorist attack. our ambassador in paris has a marine detachment guarding him. shouldn't we have a marine detachment guarding our ambassador in benghazi? they first blamed the youtube video, and now they are trying to blame the romney ryan ticket for making this ran issue. we agreed with hed with the obama administration with regard to iraq.

the vice president was put in charge of those negotiations by president obama, and he failed to get the agreement. ween don't have [ inaudible ] agreement because they failed to get one. that's what we are talking about. and when it comes to our veterans we owe them a great deal of gratitude for what they have done for us. including your son, bo. >> biden: thank you. >> ryan: but we want to make sure we don't lose the things we fought so hard to get. we agree with the 2014 transition but we also want to make sure we are not projecting weakness abroad. this benghazi issue would be a tragedy in and of itself but unfortunately it's indicative of a broader problem, and that's the unravelling of the obama foreign policy which is making the world more chaotic and us less safe. >> governor romney talked about the weakness -- talked about

apologies from the obama administration. was that really appropriate right in the middle of the crisis? >> ryan: on that same bay the obama administration had the exact same position. they disavowed their own statement that put up earlier in the day in cairo. but it's never too early to speak up for our values. we should have spoken out right away when the green revolution was up and starting when iran people were being attacked. we should alwaysing stand up for peace, for demom aresy and individual rights. and not imposing these devastating defense cuts because what that does when we equivocate on our values -- it projects weakness, and when we look weak our adversaries

are -- >> biden: that's all a bunch of ma lar i can. >> be specific. >> biden: the congressman here cut embassy security in his bert by $300 billion below what we asked for. number two governor romney before he even knew that our ambassador was killed he was making a political statement panned by the media around the world. and this weakness. i don't understand what my friend is talking about here. this president has done everything he has said he was going to do. he repaired our alliances so the rest of the world follows us again. he brought the entire world including russia and china to bring about the most

devastating -- the most devastating efforts on iran to make sure that they in fact stop -- look i -- i -- these guys bet against america all the time -- >> let me go back to libya. >> biden: sure. >> what were you first told about the attack? why were people talking about protests, when people in the consulate first saw armed men attacking with guns -- >> biden: because that's exactly what we were told by the ill tell -- intelligence community. as they learned more facts they changed their assessment. and a leading diplomat from the reagan years is doing an investigation as to if there were any lapses -- >> and they wanted more security there. >> biden: we did not know they wanted more security.

and by the way, at the time we were told -- we said exactly what the intelligence community told us that they knew. that was the assessment and as the intelligence changed their view, we made it clear. that's why i said we will get to the bottom of this. usually when there is a crisis we pull together as a nation, but even before we knew what happened to the ambassador the governor was holding a press conference. that's not presidential leadership. >> the romney campaign talks about no apologies. should the americans apologize for burning korans and urinating on taliban corpse. >> ryan: oh god, yes. what we should not apologize for is for standing up for our

values and saying the egyptian people while he is cracking down on them that he is a good guy and the next way say he has got to go. we need marines in benghazi when the commander on the ground says we need more security. there were requests and those requests for more security were not honored. this was libya, a country we knew we had al-qaeda there. we know al-qaeda is on the rise in africa. and we did not give our ambassador in benghazi a marine detachment. here is the problem. look at all of the various issues out there, and it's unravelling before our eyes. the vice president talks about

sanctions in iran -- i would like to move to iran. >> ryan: absolutely. >> both president obama and governor romney have said they will prevent iran from getting a nuke even if they means military action. last week former defense secretary said a strike on iran's facilities would not work, and quote, could prove catastrophic haunting us for generations. can the two of you be absolutely clear and specific to the american people how effective would a military strike be? congressman ryan? >> ryan: we cannot allow iran to gain a nuclear weapon's capability. let's take a look at where we have come from. when barack obama was elected they had enough nuclear material to make one bomb, and now they have enough for five. they are four years close towards a nuclear weapon's capability. we had four different sanctions

against iran one here. mitt romney proposed these ang shuns in 2007. the administration was blocking us every step of the way, only because we had strong bipartisan support for these tough sanctions were we able to overrule. imagine what would have hand if we had these sanctions in place earlier. look at what iran is doing. they are stepping up their terrorist attacks. they tried to blow up the saudi ambassador in washington, d.c. and when this administration says all options are on the table, they send out officials that send all of these mixes signals. in order to solve this peacefully, you have to have the ayatollahs change their minds. they are moving faster towards a

nuclear weapon. it's because this administration watered down sanctions, and now we have them in place because of congress. they say the military option is on the table but it is not being viewed as credible and the key is to do this peacefully to make sure we have credibility. under the romney administration we will have credibility. >> vice president biden. >> biden: unbelievable. imagine if we would have let the american congress work out the sanctions? do you think there is any possibility the entire world would have joined us? these are the most kripmenting sanctions in the history of sanctions, period. governor romney said we have to keep these sanctions. when you are talking about doing more, do you want to go to war?

>> ryan: we want to prevent war. >> biden: they say there is nothing more than they say we should do that we haven't already done. and with regard for the united states to take action militarily. we feel quite confident we could deal a serious blow to the iranians. but number two, the irans are the -- israels and the united states are absolutely the same, about place in terms of how close -- how close the iranians are to getting a nuclear weapon. they are a good way away. there is no difference between our view and theirs. when my friend talks about the material, they have to take this highly enriched uranium get it from 20% up, and then they have to be able to put something to put it in. both the israels and we will

know if they start the process of building a weapon. so all of this bluster i keep hearing, all of this loose talk, what are you talking about? are you talking about to be more credible? what more can the president do stand before the united nations, tell the whole world, directly communicate to the ayatollah, we will not let them acquire a nuclear weapon, period. unless he is talking about going to war. >> ryan: martha. let's look at this from the view of the ayatollahs. they see this administration trying to water down sanctions in congress for over two years. they are moving faster toward a nuclear weapon. they see us saying we need more space with our ally israel. they see president obama and new york city the same day that netenyahu is here, instead of meeting with him, he goes on a

talk show. they see the secretary of defense walk them back. they are not changing their mind. that's what we have to do is change their mind -- >> how do you do it so quickly. look, you both saw benjamin netenyahu hold up the picture of a bomb with a red line and talking about the red line being in spring. so can you solve this -- if the romney/ryan ticket is elected, can you solve this in two months before spring and avoid -- >> ryan: we can debate the time line whether it's that short of time or longer -- i agree it's probably longer. number two it's -- >> you don't agree with that bomb -- >> ryan: look we both agree that to do this peacefully you have got them to change their minds. they are not changing their minds -- >> biden: let me tell you what the ayatollah sees.

he sees his economy being crippled. the ayatollah sees 50% less exports of oil, he sees his economy going in a freefall and he sees the world totally united in opposition to him getting a nuclear weapon. the president has met with netenyahu a dozen times. i was in -- just before he went to the un, i was in a conference call with the president -- with him talking to netenyahu for well over an hour, and stark relief of what was going on. this is a bunch of stuff -- >> what does that mean? >> biden: it means it is simply inaccurate. >> ryan: it is irish. >> biden: it is. the secretary of defense has

made it -- you can't walk anything back. we will not allow the iranians to get a nuclear weapon. what netenyahu held up there was when they get to the point where they can enrich uranium enough to put it into a weapon. they don't have enough to put it into a weapon. iran is more isolated today than when we took office. sit totally's a littled -- [overlapping speakers] >> ryan: thank heavens we had these sanctions in place. it is in spite of their opposition -- >> biden: oh, god. >> ryan: all i have to point to are the results. they are four years closer to a nuclear weapon -- >> can you tell the american people what another war in the middle east -- >> biden: they are closer to be able to get enough material to put in a weapon -- >> you are acting a little bit like they don't want one.

>> biden: i didn't say that. facts matter martha. all of this loose talk about all they have to do is get to a american amount of enriched uranium and they have a weapon, not true. and if we ever have to take action, unlike when we took office, we will have the world behind us, and that matters. >> what about bob gate's statement. could prove catastrophic haunting us for generations. >> biden: he is right. >> ryan: and what it does is undermines our credibility by backing up the point when we make it that all options are on the table. that's the point. the ayatollah see these kinds of statements and they think i'm going to get a nuclear weapon. when we see the kind of equivocation that takes place when the green revolution

started up they were silent for nine days. when they see us putting daylight between ourselves and our allies in israel that gives them encouragement. when they see russia watering down any further sanctions -- the only reason we got a un sanction is because russia watered it down. >> biden: martha -- >> let me ask you what is worse? war in the middle east? another war in the middle east or a nuclear armed iran. >> ryan: a nuclear-arm ld iran which triggers a nuclear arms race in the middle east. they call us the great satan and if they get nuclear weapons other people will pursue their nuclear weapons as well. >> vice president biden. >> biden: war should always be

the last resort. that's why these crippling sanctions, which if i'm not mistaken governor romney said he should continue -- i make be mistaken he has changed his mind so often, i could be wrong. but the fact is they are being crippled by them. and we have made it clear, big nations can't bluff. this president doesn't bluff. >> gentlemen i want to bring the conversation to the straight of our economy. the number one issue here at home is jobs. the percentage of unemployed just fell below 8% for the first time in 43 months. the obama administration had projected it would fall below 6% now after the addition of close to a trillion dollars in stimulus money. so will both of you level with the american people can you get unemployment to under 6%? and how long will it take? >> biden: i don't know how long

it will take. we can and will get it under 6%. when we came into office the economy was in freefall. 9 million people lost their job. $1.6 trillion in wealth lost in equity in your homes, and retirement accounts for the middle class. we immediately went out and rescued general motors made sure we cut tacks for the middle class, and when that occurred, what did romney do? romney said let detroit go bankrupt. we moved and help people refinance their home. governor romney said no jooshgs let foreclosures hit the bottom. that shouldn't be surprising for a guy who says 47% of the american people won't take responsibility fof their lives. these people are my mom and dad.

my neighbors. they more effective tax than governor romney pays in his federal tax. they are veterans and people fighting in afghanistan right now who are quote not paying any taxes. it's about time they take some responsibility here. and instead of signing pledges to grove norquist not to ask the wealthy among u.s. to tribute to bring back the middle class, they need to say we are not going to repeat the mistakes we had in the past making sure we continue to hemorrhage these tax cuts for the super wealthy. they are pushing the continuation of a tax cut that will give an additional $500 billion n tax cuts to 120,000 families and they are

holding hostage the middle class tax cut because they say we won't continue that tax cut unless you continue the tax cut for the super wealthy. >> mr. ryan. >> ryan: you know what the unemployment rate in scranton is today? >> biden: i sure do. >> ryan: it was 8.5% when you came in. >> biden: look, that's not how it is going. it is going down -- >> two-minute answer please. >> ryan: did they come in and inherit a tough situation? absolutely. [ laughter ] >> ryan: but we're going in the wrong direction. look at where we are. the economy is barely limping along. it is growing at 1.3%, that's slower than it grew last year job growth in september was slower than it was in august and august was slower than it was in july. we're heading in the wrong direction. 23 million americans are

struggling for work today. 15% of americans are living in poverty today. this is not what a real recovery looks like. we need real reforms for real recovery. and that's exactly what mitt romney and i are proposing. get america energy independent. help people who are hurting get the skills they need to get the jobs they want. get the deficit under control. make trade work for america, and champion small businesses. don't raise taxes on small businesses because they are our job creators. he talks about detroit. mitt romney is a car guy. let me tell you about the mitt romney i know. this is a guy who i was talking to a family in massachusetts the other day, cheryl and mark nixon. their kids were hit in a car crash, four of them two of them rob and reid were paralyzed

them. the romneys didn't know them. he asked if he could come over at christmas. he brought his boys and gifts. he said i know you are struggling don't worry about their college, i'll pay for it. mitt romney doesn't tell these stories. when the nixons told this story it was that he gave his time. mitt romney is a good man. he cares about 100% of americans in this country. and with respect to the quote, i think the vice president very well knows that sometimes the words don't come out of your mouth the right way. [ laughter ] >> biden: but i always say what i mean. [ laughter ] >> biden: and so does romney. >> ryan: we want to get people out of poverty in the middle class. we believe in opportunity and upward mobility.

>> vice president. i have a feeling you have a few things to say here. [ laughter ] >> biden: the idea if you heard that -- that little sol lil question on 47% and you think he just made a mistake then i have a bridge to sell ya. look, i don't doubt his personal generosity. and i understand what it is like. when i was a little younger than the congressman, my wife was in an accident and killed my daughter and my wife and my two sons survived. i have sat in the homes of many people who have gone through what i went through, because the one thing you can give people solace is to know if they know you have been through it that they can make it. so i don't doubt his personal commitment to individuals, but i know he had no commitment to the automobile industry. he said let it go bankrupt period. let it drop out. all of this talk we saved a

million jobs. 200,000 people are working today. and i have never met two guys more down on america across the board. 5.2 million new jobs private sector jobs. we need more, but 5.2 million. if they would get out of the way and let us pass the tax class for the middle class, make it permanent, and pass the jobs bill and allow 14 million people who are struggling to stay in their homes because their mortgage is upside down, just get out of the way. stop talking about how you care about people. show me something. show me a policy. show me a policy where you take responsibility. and they talk about this great recession as if it fell out of the sky. it came from this man voting to put two wars on a credit card at the same time put a prescription drug on the credit card a trillion dollars tax cut for the very wealthy.

i was there, i voted against him. and now all of a sudden these guys are so seized with the concern about the debt that they created -- >> congressman ryan. >> ryan: they came in with one party control. when barack obama was elected they had the ability to do everything of their choosing and look at where we are right now. they passed the stimulus. the idea we would borrow this money spend it on these special interest groups we would be just fine. they said right now if we just passed the stimulus the economy would groh at 4%. >> when could you get it below 6%? >> ryan: that's what our entire premise is all about. getting the economy growing at 4%. look at the $90 billion in stimulus. the vice president was in charge

of overseeing this. $90 billion in grown pork to campaign contributors and special interest groups. they are just at the department of energy, over 100 criminal investigations -- >> biden: martha look -- his colleague -- [overlapping speakers] >> biden: spent months and months -- >> ryan: this is the inspector general. >> biden: spent months and months, and i love my friend here. go to our website, he sent me two letters saying by the way can you send me some stimulus money for companies here in the state of wisconsin. we spent millions of dollars -- >> you did ask for stimulus? >> ryan: on two occasions we advocated for constituents who were applies for grants. >> biden: i love that. this is such a bad program and he writes me a letter saying the

reason we need this stimulus, it will create growth and jobs. his words. and that program again investigated. what the congress said was it was a model. less than .4 of 1% waste or fraud in the program. they did investigated and did not find one single piece of evidence. i wish he would just -- be a almost candid. >> ryan: was it a good idea to spend taxpayer dollars on extra cars in finland >> biden: it was a good idea that this was exactly what we needed. it stopped us from going off the cliff. it set the conditions to be able to grow again. we have in fact 4% of those green jobs that didn't work it's a better batting average than investment bankers hat.

>> ryan: where are the 5 million green jobs -- >> i want to move on to medicare and entitlements. >> biden: by the way any letter you sen me i'll entertain. >> ryan: i appreciate that, joe. >> both medicare and social security are going broke. will benefits for americans under these programs have to change for the programs to survive, mr. ryan? >> ryan: absolutely. medicare and social security are going bankrupt. these are indisputable facts. when i look at these programs we have all had tragedies in our lives, i think about what they have done for my own family. my mom and i had my grandmother move in with us. medicare was there for her just like it is there for my mom right now. after my dad died my mom and i got social security survivor's benefits. helped my mom go back to school

in her 50s. she paid all of her taxes on the promise that these programs will be here. and the best way to do it is reform for my generation. then you can guarantee they don't change for people in or around retirement. obamacare takes $716 billion from obama to spend on medicare. even their own chief of medicare backs this up. he says you can't claim that this money goes to medicare and obamacare. and then they put the bomb bomb care board in charge of cutting medicare each and every year in ways that will lead to denying care for current seniors. this board the president is supposed to apoint them next year, and not one of them has to have medical training. when the program goes bankrupt

social security a 25% discount kicks? . we'll stop that from happening. we'll tell you about vouchers and say all of these things to try to scare people. here is what we're saying. guaranteed coverage options that you can't be denied including traditional medicare. choose your plan, and then medicare subsidizes your premiums, not as much for the wealthy people more for middle income, and total out of pocket for the poor and sick. >> vice president biden. >> stephanie: i heard that death panel argument from sarah palin. it seems like i hear this every time about panels. but let's talk about medicare. what we did is we saved $716 billion and put it back -- applied it to medicare.

we cut the cost of medicare. we stopped overpaying insurance companies when doctors and hospitals, the ama supported what we did. aarp endorsed what we did. and it extents the life of medicare to 2024. they want to wipe this all out. it also gave more benefits. any senior out there ask yourself do you have more benefits today? you do. if you are near the doughnut hole you have more. they wipe all of this out, and medicare becomes insolvent in 2016. number 2 guaranteed benefit. it is a voucher. when the congressman had his first voucher program, the cbo said it would cost $6,400 a year, martha more for every senior j55 and below when they got there. he knew that, yet he got it his

buddies to vote for it. governor romney knowing that said i would sign it were i there. who do you believe the ama? me? a guy who has fought his whole life for this? or somebody who would put in motion a plan that knowingly added $6,400 a year more to the cost of medicare. now they have a new plan. trust me it's not going to cost you anymore. folks follow your instints on that one. and with regard to social security we will not privatize it. if we had listened to governor romney and the congressman during the bush years, imagine where all of those seniors would be now if their money had been in the market. their ideas are old and their ideas are bad, and they eliminate the guarantee of medicare. >> ryan: here is the problem. they got caught with their hands in the cookie jar turning medicare into a biggy bank for obamacare. their own actuary came to

congress and said one out of six hospitals and nursing homes are going to go out of business as a result of this -- >> biden: that's not what they said. >> ryan: 7.4 million seniors are projected to lose the current coverage they have -- >> biden: that didn't happen. more people signed up for medicare advantage after the change. nobody -- >> ryan: mr. vice president -- i know -- >> biden: no. >> ryan: i know you are under a lot of duress to make up for lost ground -- [ laughter ] >> ryan: but people would be better served if we don't interrupt each other. they already organized the retirement -- >> let me ask you this. what -- what is your specific plan for seniors who really can't afford to make up the difference in the value of what you call a premium support plan and others call a voucher -- >> ryan: 100% coverage. >> how do you make that up in >> ryan: by taking down the

subsidies for wealthy people. this is a plan -- by the way the $6,400 number was misleading then and it's totally inaccurate now. this is plan i put together -- >> biden: not one democrat endorses this. >> ryan: our partner is a democrat from oregon -- >> biden: and he said he does no longer support you. >> ryan: we put it together with a former clinton advisor -- >> biden: who disavows it. >> ryan: here is the point martha -- if we don't fix this problem pretty soon, then current seniors get cut. here is the problem. 10,000 people are retiring every single day in america today and they will for 20 years -- >> biden: martha if they just allow medicare to bargain for the cost of drugs like medicaid can. that will save $156 billion

right off of the bat -- >> ryan: and it will deny seniors choices. >> biden: they are not denied. folks all of your seniors out there? have you been denied choices -- >> ryan: because it is working right now -- >> if it could help solve the problem, why not very slowly raise the medicare eligibility age by two years. >> biden: i was there when we did that with social security in 1983. i was one of a few people sitting in the room. we all said as long as everybody is in the deal and everybody is making some sacrifice we can find a way. we made the system solvent to 2033. we will not, though be part of any voucher plan eliminating -- the voucher says mom, when you are 65 go out there, shop for the best

insurance you can get, you are out of medicare you can buy back in with this voucher, which will not keep pace with health care cost, because if it did, there would be no savings. we will be no part of a voucher program or the privatization of social security. >> ryan: if you go to your mailbox get a check and buy something -- nobody is proposing that. barack obama four years ago said if you don't have any fresh ideas use stale tactics to scare voters. if you don't have a good record to run on. paint your opponent as someone people should run from -- >> you were one of the few to stand with president bush when he was seeking to privatize social security. >> ryan: for younger people. i have always said let younger americans have a voluntary choice. what we're saying is no changes

for anybody 55 -- >> biden: what mitt romney is proposing -- >> ryan: and then the kinds of changes we're talking about for younger people like myself is don't increase the benefits as fast as everybody else slowly raise the retirement age over time -- >> quickly vice president. >> biden: quickly. the bottom line here is all of the studies show if we went with social security proposal made by mitt romney if you are in your 40s now you will pay $2,600 less in social security. if you are in your 20s now you get $4,700 less. the idea of changing and change being in this case to cut the benefits for people without taking other action, you can do to make it work is absolutely the wrong way. these -- look these guys hadn't been big on medicare from the beginning, and they have always been about social security as little as you do. look, folks use your common

sense. who do you trust on this? a man who introduced a bill that would raise it $6,400 a year knowing it and passing it and romney saying he would sign it or me and any president. >> ryan: that statement was completely misleading -- >> biden: those are the facts. >> ryan: this is what politicians do when they don't have a record to run on -- >> biden: medicare beneficiaries -- >> we're going to move on. >> ryan: medicare and social security did so much for my own family we are not going to jeopardize this program -- >> biden: you are jeopardizing the program. you are changing it from a guaranteed benefit to a premium support. whatever you call it, people are going to have to pay more money out of their pocket and the families i come from they don't have the money -- >> gentlemen, i would like to move on to a very simple

question for both of you, and something tells me i won't get a very simple answer. >> biden: i gave you a simple answer. he is raising the cost of medicare. >> if your ticket is elected who will pay more in taxes and who will pay less? >> biden: middle class will pay less, and people making nor than a million dollars a year will slowly begin to pay more. of the bush tax cuts for the wealthy, $800 million go to people making over a million dollars. they are not asking for this continued tax cut. but my friends are insisting on it. 120,000 families by continuing that tax cut will get an additional $500 billion in tax

relief in the next ten years and their income is an average of $8 million. we want to extend permanently the middle class tax cut permanently. these guys -- we say let's have a vote. let's have a vote on the middle class tax cut and the upper tax cut. let's go ahead and vote on it. they are saying no. they are holding hostage the middle class tax cut to the superwealthy. and they have another tax cut coming. that's $5 trillion that all of the studies point out will in fact give another $250 million -- yeah $250,000 a year to those 120,000 families and raise taxes for people who are middle income with a child by $2,000 a year. this is unconscionable. there is no need for this. the middle class got knocked on their heels, the great recession crushed them, they need some help now. the last people who need help

are 120,000 families for another $500 billion tax cut over the next ten years. >> congressman? >> ryan: our entire premise of these tax reform plans is to grow the economy and create jobs. it is estimated to create 7 million jobs. now, we think that government taking 28% of a family and business in income is enough. president obama thinks that the government ought to be able to take as much as 44.8% of a maul business's income. look, if you passed every person and successful small business making over $250,000 at 100%. they would only run the government for 98 days. if everybody who paid income taxes last year doubled their income taxes last year we would still have a $100 billion deficit. aren't enough rich people to tax

to pay for all of their spends. so the next time you hear them say don't worry about it. watch out, middle class, the tax bill is coming to you. that's why we're saying we need million tax reform. out of ten businesses filed their tax as individuals not corporations. the canadians dropped their tax rates to 15%. the average tax rate on businesses in industrialized world is 25%, and the president wants the top effective tax rate on successful small businesses to go above 40%. two-thirs of our jobs come from small businesses. this tax would tax about 53% of small business income. it is expected to cost us 710,000 jobs and it wasn't even pay for 10% of the proposed deficit spending increases. we're saying lower tax rates

across the board and close loopholes primary to the higher-income people. don't raise the deficit, raise taxes on the middle class, and bare the share of the income on the high-income earnings. even their own deputy campaign manager acknowledged that it wasn't correct. >> let's talk about this 90%. you have refused again to offer specifics for how you pay for that 20% across the board tax cut. do you have the specifics or are you still working on it and that's why you won't tell voters? >> ryan: we want to have big bipartisan agreements -- >> do you have the specifics? do you know what you are doing? >> ryan: look at what ronald reagan and tip o'neill did. they worked together to lower tax rates and broaden the base and worked together to fix that.

we're saying here is our framework, lower tax rates about 20% -- we forgo about $1.1 trillion in loop holes and deductions, so what we're saying is deny those loophole and deductions to higher income taxpayers so more of their income is taxed -- >> biden: can i translate. >> ryan: so we can lower tax rates across the board -- >> biden: i hope i'm going to get time to respond -- >> you'll get time. >> ryan: we want to work on how to achieve this -- >> no specifics, then. >> ryan: lower tax rates 20%, start with the wealthy -- >> can you guarantee this math will add up. >> ryan: six studies have verified that this will add up -- >> vice president biden. >> biden: let me have a chance to translate. ronald reagan gave specifics to what he was going to cut number one in terms of tax

expenditures. number two 90% of the small businesses in america make less than $250,000. let me tell you who some of those other small businesses are, hedge funds that make 6, $8 million dollars a year. let's look at how sincere they are. governor romney on 60 minutes was asked governor you pay 14% on $20 million. someone making $50,000 pays more than that do you think that's fair? and he said oh yes, that's fair. the biggest loophole is the carried interest loophole and capital gains loophole. the reason why the aei study, the tax policy center study, the reason they all say taxes will go up on the middle class, the only way you can find $5 trillion in loopholes is cut

the mortgage deduction for middle class people, cut the health care deduction for middle class people, take away their ability to get a tax break to send their kids to college -- >> is he wrong about that? >> ryan: he is. you can cut tax rates by 20% and still preserve these important preferences -- >> biden: not mathematically possible. >> ryan: it is. it has been done before -- >> biden: it has never been done before. >> ryan: jack kennedy increased growth -- >> biden: oh, now you are jack kennedy. [ laughter ] >> ryan: republicans and democrats have worked together on this -- >> biden: that's right -- >> ryan: i once you guys aren't used to bipartisan deals -- >> biden: here is what he said -- fill in the details. >> ryan: that's how you get things done. let me say it this way -- >> biden: that's coming from a republican congress working

bipartisanly? 7% rating? >> ryan: mitt romney was governor of massachusetts, he didn't demonize the democrats. -- >> biden: and you saw what -- if he did such a great job --isn't he even contesting massachusetts? >> vice president what would you suggest beyond raising taxes on the wealthy that would substantially reduce -- >> biden: just let the taxes expire like they are supposed to on those millionaires. we didn't afford $800 billion going to people making a minimum of a million dollars. they do not need it martha. those 120,000 families make $8 million a year. middle class people need the help. why does my friend cut out the tuition tax credit for them? >> can you declare anything else -- can you declare anything

else -- >> ryan: close loopholes -- >> home mortgage deductions -- >> ryan: for higher >> biden: can you guarantee anyone making less than $100,000 will have their mortgage taxes affected -- 97% of the small businesses make less than $250,000 a year would not be affected -- >> ryan: joe this taxes a million people. a million small businesses -- >> biden: it affects 97% of the small businesses -- >> ryan: the small businesses who are the greatest job creators -- >> and you are going to increase the defense budget -- >> biden: $2 trillion -- >> so no massive defense increase -- >> ryan: okay. you want to get into defense now? >> i do. how do you do that? >> ryan: they propose a

$478 billion cut to the defense to begin with. now we have another $500 billion cut to defense on the horizon. -- >> let's put the automatic defense cuts aside. no one wants that. but i want to know how you do the math and have this increase in defense spending -- >> biden: $2 trillion. >> ryan: you don't cut defense -- >> and what national security issue justifies an increase? >> ryan: we're going to cut 80,000 solders, 20,000 marines, 120 cargo plains -- >> and one war -- >> ryan: if these cuts go through our navy will be the smallest it has been since world war i. we're saying don't cut the

military by a trillion dollars, not increase it don't cut it by a trillion dollars. >> biden: we don't cut it. and i might add -- i know we don't want to use the fancy word sequester, that was part of a debt deal they asked for. my friend said we have been looking for this moment for a long time. >> ryan: can i tell you what that meant? we have been looking for bipartisanship for a long time. >> biden: and that's what he voted for and beyond that they asked for another -- the military says we need a smaller, leaner army. we need more social forces. we don't need more m-1 tanks -- >> some of the military. >> biden: that was the decision of the joint chiefs of staff, recommended to us and agreed to by the president -- they made the recommendation first.

>> okay. let's move on to afghanistan -- >> ryan: can i get into that. >> would like to move on to afghanistan. and that is one of the biggest expenditures that this country has made in dollars and lives. we just passed the sad milestone of losing 2,000 u.s. troops in this war. more than 50 were killed this year by the very afghan forces we are trying to help. we have degraded alabama -- al chi da cocan't believe now? >> ryan: we don't want to lose the gains we have gotten. we want to take sure the taliban doesn't come back in. we agree with the administration on their 2014 transition. when i think about afghanistan i think about the incredible job that our troops have done. the first time i was there in 2002, it was amazing to me what

they were facing. i went to the valley before the surge, i sat down with a young private in the 82nd from the indian reservation who would tell me what he did every day and i was in awe. and then to go back there in december to see what they had accomplished, it is nothing short of amazing. what we don't want to do is lose the gains we have gotten. we have disagreed from time to time on a few issues. we would have more likely taken into account the recommendation frgs s from our commanders. we have been spectacle with negotiations with the taliban. but we want to see the transition be successful. and that's to make sure our commanders have what they need to make sure this is successful. >> vice president biden.

>> stephanie: martha let's keep our eye on the ball. i have been to afghanistan and iraq 20 times. i have been throughout that whole country, mostly in a helicopter, and sometimes in a vehicle. we went there for one reason to get those people who killed americans. al-qaeda. woe have designated al-qaeda central, eliminated osama bin laden. that was our purpose. and in the meantime we said we would help train the afghan military. it is their responsibility to take over their own security. that's why with 49 of our allies in afghanistan we have agreed on a gradual draw down so we are out of there in the year 2014. my friend and the governor say it's based on conditions, which means it depends. it does not depend for us. it is the responsibility of the

afghans to take care of their own security. we have trained over 315,000 mostly without incident. there have been more than two dozens of cases of green on blue where americans have been killed, if the measures the military has taken do not take hold, we will not go on joint patrols, we will not train the field. we'll only train in the -- in the army bases that exist there. but we are leaving. we are leaving in 2014 period. and in the process, we're going to be saving over the next ten years another $800 billion. we have been in this war for over a decade. the primary objective is almost completed, and now we're putting the government in a position to

maintain their security. >> what conditions could justify staying? >> ryan: we don't want to stay. one of my best friends is in eastern afghanistan right now. i want him and all of our troops to come home as soon as safely as possible. we want to make sure that 2014 is successful. that's why we want to make sure that we give our commanders what they say they need to make it successful. if it was just this i would feel like we would -- we would be able to call this a success, but it's not. what we are witnessing as we turn on our television screens these days is the absolute unravelling of the obama foreign policy. problems are growing at home, but jobs -- problems are growing abroad, but jobs aren't growing here at home. >> let me go back.

he says we are absolutely leaving in 2014. you are saying that's not an absolute but -- >> ryan: we don't want to broadcast to our enemies -- put a date on your calendar -- >> but you agree with the time line? >> ryan: we do agree with the time line and transition but what any administration will do in 2013 is assess the situation to see how best to complete the time line -- >> biden: we will leave in 2014. >> ryan: what we don't want to do is give our allies reason to trust us less and our enemies -- we don't want to embolder our enemies -- >> biden: martha that's a bizarre statement since 49 of our allies -- hear me -- 49 of our allies signed on to this position, 49. 49 of our allies said out in

2014 -- >> but we have -- we have solders and marines, afghan forces murdering our forces over there. the taliban is -- do you think, taking advantage of this time line? >> biden: what we found out, unless you set a time line, bagdad in the case of iraq and -- and kabul in the case of afghanistan will not step up. they are happy to let us continue to do the job international security forces do the job. the only way they step up is say fellas we trained you we're leaving. step up. that's the only way it works. >> let me go back to the surge troops that we put in there. and you brought this up congressman ryan. i have talked to a lot of troops

and senior officers who were concerned that the surge troops were pulled out during the fighting season, and some of them saw that as a political move. can you tell me vice president biden what was the military reason for bringing those surge troops home -- >> biden: by the way when the president announced the surge -- you'll remember martha, he said the surge will be out by the end of the summer. the military said the surge will be out. before the surge occurred. so you be a little straight with me here too, before the surge occurred, we said we'll be out by the end of the summer. the reason for that -- >> military follows orders -- trust me there are people who are concerned about pulling out -- >> biden: there are people who are concerned, but not the joint chiefs. that was their recommendation in the oval office to the president of the united states of america. i sat there.

i'm sure you will find someone who disagrees with the pentagon but that is not the case here. and the reason why the military said that is you cannot wait and have a cliff. it takes, you know months and months and months to draw down forces. >> ryan: let me illustrate the issue here. because i think this can get a little confusing. we have all met with the generals. here is the way it works. the mountain pass is filling with snow. the taliban and the terrorists and others come over from pakistan to fight our men and women. when it is frozen with snow they can't do it. in the warm months fighting gets really high. in the winter it goes down. so when the admiral and general came to congress and said if you pull these people out before the

fighting season ends it puts more people at risk. yes, we drew 22,000 troops down last month, but the remaining troops who are still there are doing the mission with fewer people. we're sending fewer people out in all of these hot spots to do the same job that they were supposed to do a month ago -- >> biden: because we turned it over to the afghan troops we trained. no one got pulled out that didn't get filled in by trained afghan personnel. and he's -- he's con flating two issues the fighting season that patrayus was talking about was the fighting season this spring. that's what he was talking about. we did not pull them out. >> ryan: the calendar works the same every year. >> biden: it does. >> ryan: it's warm or it's not,

they are still fighting us they are still coming over the passes, still coming in to all of these areas, but we are sending fewer people to the front to fight them. >> biden: that's right. because that's the afghan responsibility. >> ryan: not in the east. >> biden: not in the east? >> ryan: that's why we -- >> biden: that's why we should send americans -- you would rather americans be going in -- >> ryan: we are already sending americans to do the job but fewer of them. >> biden: that's right. we are sending in more afghans to do the job. afghans to do the job. >> let's move to the civil war in syria. 25,000 to 30,000 people have now been killed. president obama explained the military action taken by libya, by saying it was in the national interest to go in and prevent

further massacres from occurring there. so why doesn't the same logic apply in syria? >> biden: it's a different country. it is five times as large geographically. it has one-fifth the population that is libya. it's in a part of the world where they are not going to see whatever would come from that war. it would seep into a regional war. you are in a country that is heavily populated in the midst of the most dangerous area in the world, and if in fact it blows up and the wrong people gain control it will have impact on the entire region. we are working hand and glove with the turks, the jar dannians, the saudis and all of the people in the region. attempting to identify the people who deserve the help so when assad goes there will be a

legitimate government that follows on. and all of this loose talk of my friend governor romney and the congressman about how we could do so much more in there. what more would they do other than put american boots to the ground. the last thing america needs is to get in another ground war in the middle east requiring tens of thousands if not well over a hundred thousand american forces. they are the facts. they are the facts. now every time the governor has asked about this he doesn't say -- he goes off on a whole lot of verbiage, but when he gets pressed he says no he would not do anything different than we are doing now? are they proposing putting american troops on the ground? if they do they should speak up and say so. but that's not what they are saying. we are doing it exactly like we

need to do to identify those forces who will provide for a stable government and not cause a regional war. >> congressman ryan? >> ryan: nobody is proposing to send american troops to syria. let me say it this way. how would we do things differently in we would want refer to assad as a reformer when he is killing his own civilians with his russian-provided weapons. we wouldn't be outsourcing our foreign policy to the united nations giving putin the ability to make the decision. this is just one more example of how the russia reset is not working. where are we?

then president obama said assad should go. it has been over a year the man has slaughtered tens of thousands of his own people and more foreign fighters are spilling into this country. so the longer this has gone on the more people -- groups like al-qaeda are going in. we could have more easily identified the freedom fighters working with our allies the turks, the saudis had we had a better plan in place to begin with. but no, we waited for kofi anun to come up with an agreement with the un. we gave russia veto power. and meanwhile about 30,000 sirrians are dead. >> biden: what would my friend do differently? if you notice he never answers the question -- >> ryan: no, we would not be going through the un -- >> biden: you don't go through the un. we are in the process now and

have been for months in making sure that help humanitarian aide and other aide and training that we believe, the turks believe, the saudis believe are the free forces inside of syria. that is underway. our allies were all on the same page. nato as well as our arab allies in terms of trying to get a settlement. we're the ones that said enough. with regard to the reset not working, the fact of the matter is that russia has a different interest in syria than we do and that's not in our interest. >> what happens if assad does not fall? congressman ryan? what happens to the region? what happens if he hangs on? >> ryan: then iran keeps their greatest ally in the region. he is a sponsor softer of

terrorism -- >> so what would mitt romney do? >> ryan: we agree with chemical weapons but not putting troops in to secure those weapons, they are right about that. but we should have worked with those freedom fighters, we should not have called assad a reformer -- >> what is your criteria -- >> ryan: and we should have not given russia the green light -- >> biden: the opposition is being armed -- >> ryan: to help assad -- and by the way if we had the status of forces agreement that the vice president said he would bet his presidency on in iraq -- >> what is your criteria for intervention? >> biden: yeah.

>> ryan: in syria? >> worldwide. >> ryan: what is in the strategic national interest of our country. >> no humanitarian. >> ryan: each situation has its own set of circumstances. things like embargoes and sanctions, and overflights those are things that don't put american troops on the ground. but only in our national security interests. >> i want to move on and return home for these last few questions. this debate is indeed historic. we have two catholic candidates first time on a stage such as this. and i would like to ask you both to tell me what role your religion has played in your own personal views on abortion. please talk about how you came

to that decision. talk about howe your religion played a part in that. and this is such an emotion amish you for so many people in this country, please talk personally about this if you could. congressman ryan. >> ryan: i don't see how a person can separate their public life from their private life or from their faith. our faith informs us in everything we do. how to take care of the vulnerable and how to make sure that people have a choice in life. i'm pro life, and that's not simply because of my catholic faith. but it's always because of reason and science. i think about 10 1/2 years ago my wife and i went to mercy hospital in janesville where i was born for our seven-week

ultra sound for our first child. and we saw that heart beat. our little baby was in the shape of a bean and to this day, we have nicknamed our first child bean. i believe life begins at conception. i understand this is a difficult issue, and i respect people who don't agree with me on this. but the policy of a romney administration will be to oppose abortion with the exceptions for rape, incest and the life of the mother. what troubles me more is how this administration has handled all of these issues. look at what they are doing with obamacare. they are infringing upon our first freedom. the freedom of religion by infringing on catholic charities, churches, hospitals. our church should not have to

sue our federal government to maintain their religious liberties. and the democrat party used to say they wanted abortion to be safe, legal, and rare. and now they support it without exception. the vice president went to china and said he wouldn't second-guess their one child policy. that to me is pretty extreme. >> vice president biden? >> biden: my religion defines who i am and i have been a practicing catholic my whole life. and it has particularly formed my social doctrine. the catholic social doctrine talks about taking care of those who can't take care of themselves. with regard to abortion i

accept my church's position on what we call a [ inaudible ] doctrine. but i refuse to impose it on equally devout christians and muslims and jews -- i refuse to impose that on others unlike my friend here, the congressman. i -- i do not believe that we have a right to tell other people that -- women they can't control their body. it's a decision between them and their doctor. in my view, the supreme court i'm not going into interfere with that. with regard to the assault on the catholic church. no religious institution, catholic or otherwise, including georgetown hospital mercy hospital, any hospital none has to either refer contraception, none has to pay for

contraception or a be a vehicle to get contraception in any insurance provide. that is a fact. in regard to the way in which we differ my friend says that he -- well i guess he accepts governor romney's position now, because in the past he has argued that there was -- there's rape and forcible rape. he has argued in the case of rape or incest it would be a crime to engage in having an abortion. i just fundamentally disagree with my friend. >> congressman ryan? >> ryan: if you believe life begins of conception that doesn't change the definition of life. that's a principal. the policy of the romny administration is to oppose abortion with the exception of

rape -- i have to take issue with the religious doctrine -- >> i want to go back to the abortion question here. if the romney/ryan ticket is elected should those that believe abortion should remain legal be worried? >> ryan: we don't think that unelected judges should make this decision, that people through their elected representatives in reaching a consensus in society should take this determination. >> biden: the court -- the next president will get one or two supreme court nominees. that's how close roe v. wade is. just ask yourself, with robert bourque being the chief advisor on the court for mr. romney who do you think he is likely to appoint? someone like scalia or someone else on the court, far right

that would outlaw planned parenthood -- excuse me, outlaw abortion? i suspect that will happen. i guarantee that will not happen. we pick two people. we pick people who are open-minded. they have been good justices. >> ryan: was there litmus test -- >> biden: no we picked people who had an open mind and did not come with an agenda. >> i'm going to move on to the closing question. you said it here tonight that the two of you respect our troops enormously. your son has served and perhaps some day your children will serve as well. i recently spoke to a highly decorated soldier who said that the presidential campaign has left him dismaid. he told me quote, the ad are so negative and they are all tearing down each other rather than building up the country. what would you say to that american hero about this

campaign, and are you ever embarrassed by the tone? >> biden: i would say the same thing i did say to my son who served a year in iraq. that we have only one truly sacred obligation as a government that is to equip those we send into harm's way and care for those who come home. everything else falls behind that. i would also tell him that the fact that he -- this decorated soldier you talked about, fought for this country, that that should be honored. he should not be thrown into the category of the 47% who don't pay their taxes. i would also tell him that there are things that v occurred in this campaign, and occur in every campaign that i'm sure both of us regret any one having

said, particularly in these -- these special new groups that can go out there and raise all of the money they want, and not have to identify themselves and say the most securelouse things. but i would ask that hero to take a look at whether or not governor romney or president obama has the conviction to helm lift up the my middle class restore them to where they were before this great recession hit and they got wiped up or just taking care of the very wealthy. i would ask them to take a look at whether the president of the united states has acted wisely in the use of force, and whether or not the slip shot comments being made by my -- my -- by governor romney serve -- serve

our interests very well. but there are things that have been said in campaigns that i -- i find not very appealing. >> congressman ryan. >> ryan: first of all i would thank him for his service to our country. and secondly i would say we're not going to make these devastating cuts to our military. and then i would say you have a president who promised hope and change who has now turned his campaign into attack blame and defame. you see if you don't have a good record to run on then you paint your opponent as someone to run from. look at all of the string of broken promises. if you like your health care plan, you can keep it. try telling that to the 20 million people projected to lose their health insurance -- or the 7.4 million seniors who are going to lose it.

or remember when he said i guarantee if you make less than $250,000 your taxes won't go up. of the 21 tax increases in obamacare 20 hit the middle class. or health insurance premiums will go down they have gone up. or remember when he said i promised by the end of my first term i'll cut the deficit in half in four years. we have had four budgets $4 trillion budgets. we can't keep spending and borrowing like this. leaders run to problems to fix problems. president obama has not even put a credible plan on the table in any of his four years to deal with his debt crisis. i have passed budgets to deal with this. mitt romney has put ideas on the table. the president likes to say he has a plan. he gave a speech.

we asked his budget office can we see the plan. he gave a copy of the speech. tell us what president obama's plan is, and they said it is a speech. you see, that's what we get this administration, speeches. mitt romney is uniquely qualified to fix these problems. his lifetime of experience his proven track record of bipartisanship, and the president broke his big promise to bring people together to solve the country's biggest problems -- >> biden: i hope i will get equal time. >> you will get just a minutes, a few seconds really. >> the two buckets the congressman has introduced has eviscerated the middle class. it will kick 200,000 children after of early education,

eliminate the tax credit people have to send their children to college. it cuts education by $450 billion. it does -- it does virtually nothing except continue to increase the tax cuts for the very wealthy and, you know we have had enough of this. my -- the idea that he is so concerned about these deficits he voted to put two wars on a credit card -- >> we're going to the closing statements in a minute -- >> ryan: just a second -- >> you are going to have your say -- >> ryan: not raising taxes is not cutting taxes -- and our budget -- >> let me -- let me -- calm down things here for just a minute. and i want to talk to you very briefly before we go to closing statements. if you are elected what could you both give to this country, as a man, as a human being that no one else could? >> ryan: honestly, there are

plenty of fine people who can lead this country, but you need people who when say they are going to do something they do it. what you need is when seem see problems they fix those problems. we're not getting that. we can grow this economy faster. that's our five-point plan is about. that means going with proven pro-growth policies. putting ideas on the table, working with democrats. that actually -- >> vice president could we get to that issue of what you could bring as a man and human being. i'll keep you to about 15 seconds -- >> biden: he gets 40? i get 15. >> he didn't get 40. >> biden: my record stands for itself. whatever i say i do. and my whole life has been devoted to levelling the playing

field for middle class people. treating main street and wall street the same. look at my record, it has been all about the middle class. they are the people that grow this country. we can grow this country from the middle out, not the top down. >> now we turn to the candidates for closing statements. vice president biden. >> biden: let me say at the outset that i want to thank you, martha for doing this and centre college. we're in a situation where we inherited a god awful circumstance. people are in real trouble. we abouted to move to bring relief to the people who need the most help now, and in the process, we -- in case you haven't noticed, we have strong disagreed, but you probably detected my frustration with their attitude about the american people. my friend says that 30% of the

american people are takers. romney points out 47% of the people won't take responsibility. he is talking about my mother and father, the places i grew up, he's talking about the people that built this country. all they are looking for, martha is an even shot. whenever you give them a shot, they have done it. they have done it. whenever you level the playing field, they have been able to move. and they want a little bit of peace of point. and the president and i are not going to rest until the playing field is levelled. they have a clear shot and peace of mind until say they turn to their kid and say, honey it's going to be okay snment it's going to be okay. that's what this is all about. >> congressman ryan. >> ryan: i want to thank you as well, martha danville kentucky, centre college and i

want to thank you joe. it has been on honor to participate in this debate. we face a very big choice. what kind of country are we going to be? what kind of country are we going to give her kids? president obama made his choices. more government spending, a government takeover of health care. it is not working. it has failed to create the jobs we need. 23 million mens are struggling for work today. 15% are in poverty. this is not what a real recovery looks like. you deserve better. mitt romney and i want to turn your support. we're offering real reforms for a real recovery for every american. mitt romney his experience, his ideas, his solutions is uniquely qualified to get this job done. at a time when we have a jobs crisis in america, would it be

nice to have a job creator in the white house? the choice is clear, a stagnant economy that promoats more government dependency or a dynamic growing economy that creates opportunity and jobs. mitt romney and i will not duck the tough issues or blame others for the next four years. we will take responsibility and we will not try to replace our founding principals. we will reapply our founding principals. the choice is clear, and the choice rests with you, and ask you for your vote. thank you. >> and thank you both again. this concludes the vice presidential debate. please tune in next tuesday for the second presidential debate in new york. i'm martha raddatz of abc news. i do hope all of you go to the polls. have a good evening. [ cheers and applause ]

>> cenk: you are watch current's coverage of the vice president debate. we are now waiting for the stretcher to take out paul ryan. [ laughter ] >> cenk: we wondered if joe biden would bring a lead fine this debate and he apparently brought two. i think he hurt ryan bad. i can hear republicans crying from coast-to-coast about this. oh, he laughed too much. oh, he hit him too hard. the moderator asked too hard of questions. i think biden killed them. that's my thought. governor spitzer what do you think? >> eliot: were you watching a different channel? >> cenk: apparently. >> eliot: i think this was a draw. i counted the different segments here beginning at the top, i

thought the benghazi conversation at the top. i thought paul ryan did real harm to joe biden. it got better in the middle. joe gave a passionate speech about what has happened to the economy and what the policies and values have been. and i hope they turn that into a tv spot. the rest of it frankly i thought it was kind of a draw. i thought neither side scored clear points. i think this was actually a far better substantive engagement. i thought martha did a great job moderating it. but i don't think there was a dominant force here. >> cenk: other than the moderator, i couldn't disagree more. >> jennifer: i agree with you, cenk. if debates are about style -- a

lot about style, style wise biden kicked it out of the park -- hit it out of the park. i was going to mix my metaphors there. [ laughter ] >> jennifer: but the bottom line i think style wise biden really did a great job. he has all of the facts at his disposal and he had has the gav taus. there was a minute there i was worried he was getting too disdaneful of the kid. but when he talks about how long he has known bb netenyahu. and when he looks at the camera and says trust me who would you prefer to handle your medicare? that's an effective breaking of the barrier.

i thought he was great. >> cenk: john? >> john: i think the winner was martha raddatz. i think joe biden helped the president more than he hurt paul ryan. there were moments where paul ryan was just taking it and not coming back at all. and i think joe biden did overreach at times a little bit. the timing -- the numbers i have is joe biden had 40 minutes and 8 of speech, paul ryan had 38 minutes and 29 seconds of speech. >> eliot: i always try to score the way a boxing judge would. round by round. the only one where joe scored really serious blows -- they are the critical ones in my views, were on the jobs and taxes. but those were only two of the

nine segments. i don't think that joe -- as i said i would like to see as an ad his articulation of the jobs but he didn't take apart the budget -- >> but martha did that a bit. >> eliot: her questions were better than joe's answers on that. but the out of the box segment on benghazi -- >> jennifer: that was the toughest question of all. >> eliot: absolutely. and the first segment went to paul ryan on benghazi and was kind of a hard pushback against the obama foreign policy. >> cenk: some of the criticism unquestionably of joe biden was that he was demeaning and dismissive of paul ryan. that was on purpose. he laughed at him throughout the debate.

i loved it. >> jennifer: he department laugh. >> cenk: he laughed at him. and i love that strategy. joe biden doesn't have to be liked because he is not running for president. he has to come out there and attack and say these guys aren't ready, and they don't know anything. and to jennifer's point he had the truth behind him. he had facts. at the end of the night, the audience goes who is that kid paul ryan? >> eliot: no. >> cenk: he likes fetuses so much because he looks like one. >> eliot: stop cenk that's enough. [ laughter ] >> eliot: he wasn't laughing in a mocking way. but he was respectful. i think he came across as the likable joe that we have gotten

to know over many years of government service. >> cenk: really? >> eliot: one or two times did he interrupt perhaps more than he should have. but i think joe was likable. and i don't think that paul ryan came across as a kid. >> cenk: really? >> eliot: yes, i think joe biden's dexterity with facts was greater -- >> john: yeah, i would say joe biden won on performance, but i agree paul ryan was relaxed. he didn't embarrass himself once. >> cenk: i thought he had talking points throughout. joe looked like a real human being, to your point. paul ryan every time you went to

him, all right. these are the things i memorized, that's the sense i got. >> john: like i said before i think whoever looks like they are having the most fun is the winner, and on that front joe biden won. >> cenk: let's go to michael shure. >> president obama needed his vice president to come in there, state some facts stated their case, and he seemed really proud of the administration, and i think that showed tonight. i think that's really important when you are running for president to be proud of the job you have done. and i think that is one of the things that i'm going to take away from. >> cenk: he said all of the things that progressives have been dying for a democrat to say for a long time. where the hell did this deficit come from? you guys gave it to us.

and you never show the policy. >> jennifer: yeah, he came back from the molarky at the very start, there were a number times that it was just boom, boom. >> john: i wish i made mularkey my drinking game word -- >> jennifer: or friend. >> eliot: paul ryan didn't use the very -- especially as we were chatting a few moments ago when joe biden said you know i believe and mean what i say. well mr. vice president you just said this -- >> cenk: biden mentioned the 47% a couple of times.

heated discussion continues after the break. and we'll have david shuster in kentucky. and i'm curious how it is being spun after this.

(vo) she gets the comedians laughing and the thinkers thinking. >>ok, so there's wiggle room in the ten commandments, that's what you're saying. (vo) she's joy behar. >>current will let me say anything.

>> cenk: we're back on current's exciting dramatic coverage of the vice president debate. in that one was a lot of fun. and michael shure of course was in the "war room" in san francisco. and david shuster is in kentucky. what is happening there, david? >> first of all the republicans are complaining about debate moderator martha raddatz saying that she was somehow unfair which i think is a good sign that they don't believe that their guy did very well. but body language republicans

had the same body language the democrats had last week. david axelrod said you cannot deny that joe biden handily won this debate. this was fact and conviction versus ryan's glib lines and empty promises. axelrod said it was at one point watching a principal discipline a student. one of the republicans we spoke with teaches media training to other republicans about how important style and form is. he only wanted to talk about substance. and when we asked him, this is

all about style and to enas you guys said last week. and he said maybe people are going to be put off by mitt romney laughing. and obviously republicans are trying to put up a good face but even they rick nice vice president biden cleaned paul ryan's clock tonight. you can't argue the facts, the policies that were articulated. and republicans are going hard at the debate moderator instead of trying to defend paul ryan. >> cenk: thank you so much david. we were looking forward to what the reaction was going to be. i knew they would go after martha raddatz. she did tough follow-up questions to both of them. >> jennifer: yes.

but i'm curious to know where they are saying that. i'm thinking they might have said it because she focused so much on foreign policy -- >> eliot: i think that was the area quite frankly where paul ryan did better. the benghazi segment was paul ryan's best moment. and the most painful for joe biden. there was for articulable theme there for him. he should have been able to hit it out of the park and say everybody agrees the policy is on thin ice. >> john: i think martha raddatz wants our troops out, but seeing our paul ryan took the ball and joe biden snatched that right back by saying we are sending in

afghan troops. i thought the power shifts kept going back and forth. the $800 billion in projected savings. president obama has been criticized for saying that figure. it was sort of made up. >> cenk: but if they did an honest fact check they would say biden was off on a few thing -- >> john: but the millions of catholics who do not support abortion, i have never heard that articulated better. >> eliot: i don't think that is going to swear people one way or another. >> cenk: i think he made a conservative argument for joe

versus wade. >> jennifer: he did, but he didn't go after ryan as forcefully as i would have -- maybe because of the context of the question. because it was a personal issue. >> eliot: yeah. i thought ryan missed an opportunity with afghanistan -- because the entire premise of the obama policy in afghanistan has been flawed since the west point speech. and ryan was correct, and all of us have criticized him for saying we are leaving on such and such of date. >> john: what surprised me was joe biden didn't say that's exactly with what we did in iraq. and has it blown up?

no. >> jennifer: let's get to the domestic stuff guys. i think the domestic -- for me the domestic segments were the ones that were the most interesting, and the ones where i thought that joe came out -- and to me -- there were two moments where i thought he just completely had him. one was when he called them out for signing pledges to grover norquist instead of signing pledges to the middle class. that was a great line. and the second when he looked at paul ryan and said you sent me a letter requesting the stimulus money for your district and clean energy and what could paul ryan say? >> eliot: that's what we do. [ laughter ] >> john: he left out in december 2010 paul ryan asked for the obamacare grant. >> cenk: eliot was what your

favorite moment. >> eliot: the vice president had a two-minute riff how we were in freefall, they brought us back from stimulus bailout, to economic recover. that's the joe biden we love. that should be turned into the tv spot that they run across the nation. >> jennifer: and that was the riff where he mentioned the 47%, grove norquist let detroit go bankrupt -- >> eliot: all of the things that the president didn't say last week the vice president wove into a beautiful tapestry. >> cenk: they had one opportunity to send a democrat out there to be really aggressive. >> eliot: i think he is bringing the lead pipe on tuesday.

[ laughter ] >> cenk: john what was your favorite moment? >> john: the biden performance. and a favorite moment i mean -- there were a lot of moments where i was kind of surprised at -- here when -- i will say when biden said i was there when reagan changed the tax rates, and he said what he was going to cut. >> jennifer: yeah. >> cenk: and it's true. i come back to that all the time. i sent out a message during the debate, and you look at this and go does anyone really believe that paul ryan is more ready to be president than joe biden is? i don't think anybody would think that. on "the young turks" tomorrow we'll have governor grandholm

and governor spitzer, you are going to stay the whole show right -- >> eliot: i guess so. >> cenk: i want to do a montage of joe biden's laugh. >> jennifer: it's a string of laughs of joe biden. >> cenk: yes. i love it. >> eliot: now i understand. >> cenk: they should be made fun of and laughed at because their positions are comical. they kept saying facts matter. and he would give and he would give a fact. he would say here is their plan on taxes, on medicare on foreign policy and when he said in afghanistan i don't want american kids dieing there. he said i don't want american kids dieing there. i'm go to send the afghans to do the job himself. >> eliot: it's like wwf, where

they can do a substitution and we can send joe biden in instead of the president. >> jennifer: the president is going to bring it. >> cenk: all right. well, i can't wait for all of the analysis tomorrow. we're obviously loving this. state with us throughout the debates, we'll cover the next two presidential debates as well. we'll repeat in coverage later in the night. "say anything" with joy behar is going to be next, and the vice president will be with us on the last presidential debate again, thank you so much for joining us everybody, we'll see you next time. >> jennifer: good night. ♪ ♪ guts. glory. ram.

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